A question for our overseas members

[bourbonv]

Brown-Forman is saying that one of the reasons they are lowering the proof of Jack Daniel's Old No. 7 to 80 proof is because they are competing in an international market against Johnny Walker and other 80 proof Scotch whiskies. Do you feel that this is a valid reason? Did the extra proof keep people from your country from purchasing a bottle of Jack Daniel's Old No. 7?

Mike Veach

[mickblueeyes]

I don't mean to contradict you, as it is not my intention to be abrasive on my first day here

However, I was informed via email from Brown Forman (I believe reserved only for those in the industry, as it was forwarded from a local distributor) that Jack had been at 80* in international markets for many years. They decided to lower the proof in the states (I was told that KY and TN were the only "hold-out" states) to equalize with the rest of world.

I don't know the veracity of this information, but that is what I was told.

[bourbonv]

Actually you are not contradicting, just clarifying, which I appreciate. It has been 80 proof overseas for several years now, but was not always. It is true that there were just a few place in the States where you could still get 86 proof Jack and they were lowered to make the brand standard throughout the world. That still does not mean that my original question is not valid - did the higher proof keep people in country x, y or z from buying Jack and picking up a bottle of Johnny Walker instead?

I have an old bottle from about 1982, in my liquor cabinet that is 90 proof. Maybe I will open it and do a tasting tomorrow.

Mike Veach

[mickblueeyes]

Okay, I apologize. I was thinking of this question from the perspective of a person living in the states and didn't understand the question fully.

I have to honestly say that I don't know much about Jack's history, so I will have to defer to you on that one. Here is another question just to clarify. Was Jack ever distributed in other countries with proof higher than 80? If so, I could certainly see how your point would be valid in some countries. It would be interesting to see what countries Jack first launched into ( I would guess England, Germany and Japan) and how well J. Walker fared in those countries prior to Jack's arrival.

I would take a stab at it and say that in the countries that heavily consumed single malts prior to Jack's release, the proof change made little to no difference (or the change was a result of general market trends), as Scotch is often bottled at higher proofs. However, I would guesstimate that in countries where single malt was not heavily consumed, you would find that lowering the proof would increase sales.

Just a side note for this intellectual discourse Fun discussion!

[TNbourbon]

I was told that KY and TN were the only "hold-out" states...

Can't speak for KY, but -- I work part-time in a TN liquor store, and we likely saw the 80 proof before almost anyone else. We knew a couple of months in advance that Jack Daniel's was going to begin bottling its Black-label #7 at lower proof beginning in January 2004, and started seeing it on our shelves before the end of February last year. The only remaining 86-proof standard #7 bottling is the "Scenes from Lynchburg" collector series, presumably already all pre-bottled -- though they are TN-only domestically and have released only the first two here, the whole series is already available overseas.
And, a semantic quibble (sorry!) with Mike: you say "are lowering" regarding the proof. It's a done deal -- they lowered it 15 months ago. And, of course, they lowered it from 90 proof to 86 some years before that.
The recent change didn't make a news splash until 10 months after the bottling change was made. We regularly see JD buyers who still aren't aware of it, mostly because the difference between 86 and 80 proof in their Jack & Coke is a single ice cube more or less -- a variable that has been constant forever.
As a strictly business decision, then, you can hardly blame Brown-Forman unless you argue they waited way too long to do this -- it saves them about $13 million annually in federal excise taxes alone, provides more product per barrel at the same per-bottle price, and its customers don't notice the difference.

(To keep this almost germane to Mike's foreign-outlook aspect -- and to not look like I'm trying to hijack the thread -- I've seen photos of foreign bottles of JD from many years ago with labels displaying proofs under 80 proof. Some have suggested that's a matter of different proof standards, while other have noted that, no, international bottles are lower-proof for tax/tariff reasons.)

[mickblueeyes]

Not to argue with you TN, but I also work in the liquor business in TN. TN was the last state to go to 80* from 86*. Internationally and in other states, Jack has been sold at 80* for years.

[gillmang]

I've indicated my view elsewhere that in the late 1970's exported Jack Daniel was effectively 90 U.S. proof. The changes must have come after, first in export markets, then in the U.S., and probably represent a long-term corporate policy. I gave an example of a bottle of Jack Daniel pictured in a 1979 British book ("Spirits, Aperitifs and Cocktails" by Tony Lord). It is a very clear photo that bears the name of the British importer and agent (Percy Fox & Co., Bruton Street, London). The label states, "78 proof". This is approximately 90 proof in American usage. In Lord's book, he uses throughout the text the British Sykes proof system, still in force at the time in the U.K. although being phased out (the author noted) under European Community influence and today supplanted by the French Gay Lussac system of measuring alcohol content by volume. And we all know here that the alcohol by volume of a beverage is half its U.S. proof. The Sykes system is different, 100 proof in that system is 57.1% abv. (This clearly by the way is the origin of Old Grandad's 114 proof version, i.e., it is 100 Sykes proof and a nod to the original way (by the Briton Bartholomew Sykes) of "proving" spirit). In the book Lord states that both Green Label and Black Label Jack Daniel are sold domestically and for export at, "78 proof" and again earlier in the book he states he is using the Sykes' system throughout. According to a conversion table in the book 78.75 British proof = 90 U.S. proof. That is, 78 proof is a shade under 45% abv. The author states that to convert to Gay Lussac you multiply by 4, divide by 7. By this calculation, 78 proof produces 44.5% abv. Possibly under tolerance legislation in the U.S. this met the standard for U.S. 90 proof, but in any case I strongly doubt the "78 proof" Jack Daniel sold in the U.K. in the 1970's was 39% abv, no way. I conclude rather that Jack Daniel then was effectively U.S. 90 proof around the world(except if local law required a lower proof). Therefore, purchasers would possibly have been influenced by the proof changes when they came but how they were influenced, I don't know; this is what Mike was asking.

Gary

[TNbourbon]

...in other states, Jack has been sold at 80* for years.

I saw a "Scenes From Lynchburg" bottle (one not yet released here) in Mexico last October. It was 86 proof.

Additionally, the company responded when the story broke nationwide last fall thus:
"The company says the switch was made because most customers prefer the less potent mix, which was marketed first in a few states and some overseas markets. The transition was completed earlier this year."

Also, the form email that was sent to complainers:
"Thanks for writing. We appreciate your interest.
We began bottling our Jack Daniel's Black Label at 80 proof in all markets last year. We had lowered the proof from 90 to 86 back in the late 1980s.
Actually, Jack Daniel's Black Label has been 80 proof for a decade in several states and in a few other countries. Over the years, we've noticed that everywhere it's 80 proof, the number of folks enjoying our whiskey is growing.
You asked, though, whether lowering the proof means changing the recipe. Although we're bottling our whiskey at a lower proof, we haven't done anything to affect the quality that has made us so many friends over the years. We're able to lower the proof without changing the character by beginning with a more mature whiskey.
To ensure the unchanging quality of our whiskey, we also continue to make Old No. 7 just as it's always been, using the same choice ingredients and time-honored process that Mr. Jack Daniel used when he began crafting his whiskey more than 135 years ago.
Thanks again for writing. We hope you'll stay in touch.
Regards,

John and your friends at Jack Daniel's"

From that, I'd assume that most places -- not just Kentucky and Tennessee -- were still at 86 proof until "transition was completed earlier this year."

[The Whiskey Viking]

Mike

Being an overseas member I feel inclined to answer your question. To be honest nobody over here really cares whether it’s 80 or 86 Proof. I guess most people buying JD will mix it and those that drink it straight will do so because that makes them look cool. Over here most people think JD is Bourbon – why not some Americans do so as well I’m told. Those that buy whiskey will go for Scotch (at least the bulk of the herd). They’ll usually stock some Blended Scotch or Glenfiddich and consider it a good whisky. Those that consider them self whisky enthusiast’s will “only” buy Sinlge Malts – now this is simplified for the sake of the argument but I guess it’s 99% true. Well I used to be one of those Single Malters as well.
In-short if anybody would complain about the lowered Proof it would most likely be because he’s annoyed that he’ll have to drink more JD to get bummed.

Thomas

[mickblueeyes]

Very informative post Gillman. So we know that the lowering of proof had to occur post 1970's. Very interesting topic.

[gillmang]

The thing I find interesting is that the e-mail mentioned by Tim appears to confirm what I have heard anecdotally, that since the reduction to 80 proof, older whiskey is being used. I have heard the reason is to ensure the color is not too light. I wonder if the Canadian Jack always used this older whiskey, or did B-F only switch to it when they went 80 proof for the full domestic market. I feel current JD has (most bottles) a noticeable smoky scent and taste that I don't recall from 80 proofers in past years, but of course I can't be sure, it is just an impression. Older means better if as here (no doubt) they are using 4-6 year old whiskey (more or less) instead of 4-5, and to me that is only to the good. On the other hand, since older whiskey is now being used and factoring in too the 3% abv drop, I don't know if I would say the product is exactly the same as before. It is basically the same I guess, and arguably better, but not identical to what it was, in my view.

Gary

[bourbonv]

Interesting discussion so far. I hope some other countries will add their imput (Koji?).

Mick, I am generally thick skinned, so don't worry about offending by asking question that may be contadictry. I am pretty sure Jack started being exported in the 1960's on some small scale. At that time it was all 90 proof. What I am trying to find out here is there a low proof preference overseas? I hope not because that might cause other major brands to lower their proof and I think there is a reason why bottled in bond was set at 100 proof - that is the proof bourbon taste best in most cases.

From Thomas' post, it does not seem that proof is an issue in his neck of the woods, but it might be elsewhere.

Mike Veach

[KOJI]

Jack in Japan.
Suntory a giant spirits&beer maker has been importing BF products from
1970. JD was 90P then and a bottle was sold around $80. Until the 80's
it was one of the expensive brands that young students and most people
dreamed to drink one day. As economy changed and imports changed,
JD Black has changed from 90P to 86P to 80P and is sold at $15. I understand poeple want lower proof drinks, but Jack has always bottled the what is called JD Master Distiller Bottle at 90P for drinkers who would pay more for what they want. And at the same time there always was the
Gentleman Jack at 80P, and the Single Barrel at 94P(little pricy).
But two years ago they stopped bottling the Master 90P suddenly, and we
were left with two 80P bottles (Black&Gentleman) one 94P (Single)
It would have been nice if they left the Master on the market and let us
do the choosing part.Even for the extra money it was selling well in my bar.
Another thing here in Japan.Most people think of JD as Bourbon.I dont
really mind and dont start the whole story about the difference when my
customers say to me, 'Since Im in a Bourbon Bar I will have a Jack'.
And another thing,people think whisky is Scotch,and Bourbon is Bourbon.
They tell me ,'I can drink Whisky(Scotch),but I cant drink Bourbon.'
When this happens I tell them Bourbon is whisky too. Then they will try it.
Part of a bars work to let them understand what they are drinking.

But always, if youre having a good time with your drink its okay.

Koji

[bourbonv]

Thanks Koji!

I know for a while the best Jack Daniel was sent overseas. I know this by talking with foriegn reporters in Nashville bars. They would drink a Jack in a Tennessee bar much as people want to drink a Guiness in a Dublin pub, expecting that this would be the place to find the best Jack Daniel's. They were wrong and would mention that fact.

The fact is proof did not change the attitude of the buyer in Japan. That is good.

I did the tasting of the bottle of 90 proof Jack Black. I found the flavors more intense but the alcohol burn also more intense. I suspect this older version would be better in coke than the new version but otherwise about the same flavor profile.\

Mike Veach

[gillmang]

Mike, how would the 90 proof you tasted compare to the 94 proof single barrel of today? Essentially the same?

Gary