Schenley History Time Line

There's a lot of history and 'lore' behind bourbon so discuss both here.

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Re: Schenley History Time Line

Unread postby bourbonv » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:42 am

Great information. Keep it coming.
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Re: Schenley History Time Line

Unread postby cowdery » Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:25 am

Don't sell yourself short. You're using period sources, which makes you a real historian.
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Re: Schenley History Time Line

Unread postby delaware_phoenix » Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:05 am

Thanks Chuck and Mike!

I haven't found it online, but google has in it's index an eight page pamphlet published 1898 by Chas. Dennehy & Co, written by Charles Buckles Falls. According to WorldCat, Williams College, Williamstown, MA may have a copy of this pamphlet.

Also, another ad listed in the

Official catalog / International Live Stock Exposition, Chicago (1901)

I've been curious about the unusual name of this brand. There is mention of the name "Underoof" as the name of a lead and zinc mine as part of the Joplin tract of mines operated by the Granby Mining and Smelting Co. The rference is found in Mineral resources of the United States / Department of the Interior ..., Part 1 from 1912. I'll hypothesize that perhaps the name of the mine was taken from the whiskey. The name is also mentioned in the 1908 annual report of Missouri mining.

The Patent Office had issued a trademark for Underoof going back to 1934/1935. Index of trademarks issued from the United States Patent Office, Volume 935 By United States. Patent Office. (1935) Google also says it's mentioned in The Trademark register of the United States By Patent Searching Service (1967) edition, page 535 (no preview). And also in Official gazette of the United States Patent Office, Volume 443 By United States. Patent Office (1934), page 611 (no view). underoof doesn't come up in the online search of the USPTO, but maybe I didn't use the search correctly.
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Re: Schenley History Time Line

Unread postby EllenJ » Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:25 pm

I have nothing I can really add, other than these photos of a bottle given to us recently, but I totally love the work you're doing. It may eventually turn out that Old Underroof (which, after all, was blended whiskey) was just a bottom-shelf knock-off brand like hundreds of other unknowns... except that your attention (and your diligence in researching it) may bring it a prominance it never really had nor deserved during its own day. That's what the "mythology of American spirits" is all about, and for some of us that's a big chunk of why we stay interested in whiskey in the first place. Thanks again for your work.
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Re: Schenley History Time Line

Unread postby delaware_phoenix » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:00 pm

In looking back at Chuck's image with the Colonial men and their Old Underoof, perhaps there's some symbolism here. The clovers are perhaps representative of Ireland itself, Charles Dennehy's land of birth. They form a roof for the brand name, Old Underoof, to be under. The Colonialists toast in the direction of Ireland (the clovers) while one carries a bottle of the whiskey. The colonists are in green, perhaps identifying them as Irish-Americans. Perhaps this drawing/ad is saying that just as the Colonial Americans freed themselves from the British, so too shall Ireland and the Irish.

While very much a blend, honestly admitted on the bottle label, it seems Charles Dennehy wanted to present his whiskey as a cut above. And the advertising journals point to Charles Dennehy & Co as being innovative (certainly for a smaller brand).

If for the most part he didn't make his own whiskey, why emphasize in the one ad the use of heavy char and heated warehouses? Was he re-aging the whiskey he bought? I don't know if this was a common practice for the liquor wholesalers of the day.

Just to add a little bit of spice here, it appears that the Dennehy company was involved in a legal battle with the Distilling & Cattle Feeding Company in 1897-1898. The appeal of the case can be found at OpenJurist. The case involved questions involving rebate vouchers given to Dennehy from the D&C-F Co, which was declared an illegal monopoly. Some of the names involved, which may lead to other distillers, wholesalers, and their businesses are listed below. Dennehy claimed to be owed $5238 in rebates at 7¢ per proof gallon. This means he'd purchased nearly 75000 proof gallons; if the whiskey was barrelled at proof, that would be about 1400 barrels. So about 300,000 quarts.

Apparently, D&C-F Co was an illegal trust, acting as a monopoly, controlling 85% of the liquors available in the country at this time (according to the court documents).

J. B. Greenhut, President, Distilling & Cattle-Feeding Company
German-American National Bank of Preoria, Ill. (was to pay the vouchers)
Stein Brothers (another claimant for $3604), Moses Salomon, the assignee of these vouchers, an attorney
United States Distilling Company (mentioned as receiving the vouchers, endorsed by Dennehy)
G. E. Jones (an officer of USDCo?)

The offices of Charles Dennehy & Co, distiller and importer of fine liquors, are given as 39 South Water Street, Chicago, in the 1890 edition of St. Luke's Free Hospital Annual Report. (Various companies advertised.)

Now, we come to the Congressional serial set By United States. Government Printing Office where we have a case decided Jan 5, 1909, Charles Dennehy & Co v. Robertson, Sanderson & Co. Limited. Apparently Dennehy tried to trademark the term "Mountain Dew" in 1905, but was declined as the term was seen as being in common use as referring to whisky. As also was challenged by a Scottish distiller (the Robertson, Sanderson & Co, Ltd).
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Re: Schenley History Time Line

Unread postby delaware_phoenix » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:37 pm

Was poking around, and in the History of Kentucky, is mentioned John A Wathen, (page 384). Lists names of the men that started the distillery in Marion County. I didn't see mention of this so I thought I'd add what they said for completeness sake. The book is available via google.

Richard N. Wathen succeeded his father Henry H. Wathen in the family distilling business along with his brother John Barnard. And their father had succeeded his father Henry H. Wathen "in the distilling business near Lebanon in Marion County". They state the distillery was founded in 1788. It says the Wathen family was the oldest in the distilling trade in Kentucky.

They say the produced the "Old Rolling Fork" brand, which was known as Wathen's whiskey prior to prohibition. Funny, for all the importance they attribute to this brand it doesn't get much mention here. :roll:

They go on to discuss what fine gentleman Richard Wathen was, and how helpful he was to others, etc.
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Re: Old Quaker Bourbon

Unread postby cowdery » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:33 pm

scratchline wrote:Just happened across an old pint of Deluxe Old Quaker Bourbon and was pleased to be able to place it thanks to this historical thread.

It was bottled by "Old Quaker Distilling Frankfort KY, Lawrenceburg IN, and Fresno, CA". 80 proof, 4 yrs. old. It bears the legend "Old Quaker is in tune with today's growing preference for mildness and mellowness. You don't have to be rich to enjoy rich whiskey." Truer words were never spoken.

Has anyone sampled this? I can't wait to see what this olde tyme whiskey tastes like.

-Mike


I know the above was posted 4 years ago but it just now struck me that this represents the period, before the UDV acquisition, when Schenley owned both Buffalo Trace (Frankfort) and Old Quaker in Lburg, IN, but presumably not SW (Shively) else it would be listed too (maybe). Don't know what they made in Fresno.
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Re: Schenley History Time Line

Unread postby bourbonv » Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:04 am

Fresno was the west coast bottling operation for Schenley. I know they did not make any whiskey there but it is possible that some of their domestic brandy was made there. It was at least bottled there.
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Re: Schenley History Time Line

Unread postby delaware_phoenix » Sun Oct 03, 2010 8:37 pm

I didn't see mention of this (searched but didn't find).

An article from the Dec 28, 1942 issue of Life magazine mentioning Schenley Distilling Company, and how it has converted over to 100% production of industrial alcohol for the war effort. A couple pictures showing the fermentation vats and how a flaming torch could be used to show that the CO2 extinguishes the flame.
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Re: Schenley History Time Line

Unread postby OldRadioShowMan » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:56 am

HI there - I am an old radio show enthusiast and am now listening to the Suspense Series. It was sponsored by a winery, Roma Wines for a number of years. I was born and raised in Calif and never heard of them. I have been able to trace the company to Schenley who purchased Roma in 1947. Schenley was apparently bought out by United Distillers in 1987 according to this timeline.

I am trying to figure out what happened to the Roma Brand. Any info would be greatly appreciated. A number of followers of the Suspense Series are dying to know!

Thanks

ORSM
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Re: Schenley History Time Line

Unread postby aphoticV » Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:40 am

bourbonv wrote:
1891 - Lewis S Rosentiel is born. (UD Archives, 992.m.164).
...
Mike Veach


What is the correct spelling of the name? Throughout the text, and in some other resources, there appear to be four variations:
RosenTIEl - RosenTEIl - RosenSTIEl - RosenSTEIl

Also, the first name is Lewis, not Louis, is it correct?

Thanks,
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Re: Schenley History Time Line

Unread postby bourbonv » Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:32 pm

I believe that it is Lewis Rosenstiel.
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Re: Schenley History Time Line

Unread postby aphoticV » Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:20 pm

It appears so. I also found several sources, including his divorce case, where he is named as Lewis S. Rosenstiel.
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