White Dog ? ?

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White Dog ? ?

Unread postby BourbonBalls » Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:35 am

I'm doing a bourbon tasting this weekend for essentially those new to bourbon....they are as interested in learning about bourbon as well as tasting something they've never tried before. They are all "seasoned" drinkers and anxious to learn more about bourbon which I am very willing to promote! There will be both men and women there so I wanted to touch on vodka for the ladies . . .

I'd like to start with just a little info about distilling, barreling, etc and just what that means to the final bottled bourbon.

I picked up a bottle of Everclear with the intent to illustrate what white dog is.

My question: Everclear is 151 proof. Does anyone know what the grain content is? Is it the bourbon mashbill just not barreled? Is the 151 proof the distilled proof with no water added? Can I correctly tell my guests that Everclear is a near-vodka and that vodka is practically "alcoholic water"? I understand that vodka distills at a very high proof. What is the distilling proof of most bourbon? (other than WT which I know is low) What is the highest bourbon can be distilled? 160?

I want to be accurate with my info, as my guests would like to know the differences in Vodka, Scotch, Bourbon etc. I'm pitching Bourbon!

I know there are a lot of questions here . . . I appreciate any info

thanks!
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Unread postby bourbonv » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:20 am

Michael,
If you are looking for a product to represent white dog whiskey, I would suggest Georgia Moon. Everclear is grain neutral spirits and usually 191 proof or higher. this means there will be no flavor and the alcohol content is so high it will destroy the taste buds for the night.
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Unread postby BourbonBalls » Wed Sep 06, 2006 10:41 am

Mike....isnt Georgia Moon 80 proof and a corn whiskey? I was looking for something that was almost truely white dog. The Everclear is 151 proof and you are right . . . I'm not gonna' serve that to anyone before the tasting!

Don't want to burn the buds!

What might the grains be in Everclear? There's a little picture of an ear of corn on the label...are there other grains too?

thanks!
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Unread postby bourbonv » Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:27 am

Georgia moon is a Corn whiskey but it has been distilled from corn, at less than 160 proof, whereas everclear is a grain neutral spirit which is made from grain but there is no requirement so it can change based upon price of grain. Most likely since corn is the cheapest grain it is 100% corn fermented with enzymes. It is also distilled to over 190 proof to remove flavor and oder meaning that it is not even a whiskey. They make vodka out of Everclear.

If you want to show people what white dog tases like, Georgia moon is the nearest product on the market. You may even find a 100 proof version of Georgia Moon. It will have many of the corn flavors found in bourbon and is actually very close to the same mash bill as Old Charter bourbon.
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Unread postby BourbonBalls » Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:21 pm

Thanks for the great info Mike.....Its been very helpful

Georgia Moon it is! But I'll go easy on serving it.....I want my guests to know white dog....but I don't want 'em barkin' at the moon!
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Unread postby TNbourbon » Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:39 pm

Everclear is rendered in different proofs to meet different states' laws. Many states have limited the upper proof at which any liquor may be sold, so it will vary depending on where you are.
In Tennessee, Everclear is a whoppin' 190 proof, or almost pure alcohol. Don't ask me why. About the only cocktail you can make with that is the Molotov variety.
Last edited by TNbourbon on Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postby BourbonBalls » Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:43 pm

WOW....

Here in California...my Everclear is 151 proof. Guess they figured we'd blow ourselves up otherwise!
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Unread postby bourbonv » Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:37 pm

Mike,
Tim is right in that it is sold at different proofs depending upon state laws. In Kentucky you can get it at 190 proof. Just don't try to carry it on a plane.

I am glad you see my point though about the product not being a good example of white dog whiskey. You need something with more flavor.
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Unread postby gillmang » Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:46 pm

Tim, who buys that very high abv Everclear?

What do they use it for?

How does its price compare to inexpensive vodka (once you allow for the proof difference)?

Gary
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Unread postby gillmang » Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:54 pm

I will repeat a tale I've told elsewhere.

A famous English writer, he may have been Anthony Burgess (or a writer of his generation), once gave an account of a party at which he sampled Polish Pure Spirit with two companions.

Polish Pure Spirit is grain neutral spirits (not identified as vodka as such, you can buy it in Ontario a few blocks from where I type). Its strength was not quite the "Tennessee terror" of 190 proof but it is up there, around 140 proof.

The three man sampled the drink for a while. Sensing no effect, the writer said to the other two, "It can't have gotten to you yet".

A few moments later our stalwart scribe announced, "I think I'll go to bed now".

[This story is from Frederic Martin's 1960's vintage, "An Encyclopaedia of Drinks and Drinking"].
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Unread postby Mike » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:23 pm

gillmang wrote:Tim, who buys that very high abv Everclear?

What do they use it for?

How does its price compare to inexpensive vodka (once you allow for the proof difference)?

Gary


Way back in my wild days (much of my youth was misspent), ever so long ago, we used to buy something called, I believe, 'Pure Grain'. It was 190 proof and we made a cocktail with of 75% 'Grain' and 25% Grape Juice. The cocktail was called 'Purple Jesus'. I don't know if foolish kids still make that or not but my bet is that they do.

Under the influence of 'Purple Jesus', I got in a fight with a Cadillac and when I won (the Caddy left, or at least swam out of my field of vision so I declared myself the victor), I climbed the outside of a building to my girlfriend's second story apartment.

'Purple Jesus' will make you drunk as a bicycle in about 15 minutes............leave it alone. Near killed me, and I believe that girlfriend never wanted to see me again!
Last edited by Mike on Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby cowdery » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:26 pm

This is just to reinforce what Mike said, all of which is correct.

Everclear is vodka. There is no difference between Everclear and vodka. The only difference between Everclear and vodka is proof, i.e., how much water is added. In fact, it is likely that Everclear and most U.S.-made vodkas are the exact same stuff, i.e., products of the same recipe and the same distillery. Most companies that sell vodka don't make it. They buy GNS (i.e., Everclear) from ADM or whomever, dilute it and bottle it. Sometimes they perform some additional filtering or other processing.

Everclear is supposed to be used to make cocktails, as you would use vodka, but with the mixers providing the dilution rather than starting with a spirit that is already 60 percent water. My main experience with the stuff was in college when it was mixed with Kool Aid to make buckets (literally) of party punch.

The very high proof Everclear is used in the production of crack cocaine and, I think, also methamphetamine, which is why it is prohibitted in some markets, Chicago being one.

Although vodka fantasists usually disagree with me on this, in doesn't matter what grains are used to make GNS/vodka, because the high proof of distillation erases all of the grain character but, in fact, most GNS is a pure corn product.

On the other hand corn whiskies, such as Georgia Moon and Mellow Corn, contain small amounts of rye and malt. A bourbon white dog would contain slightly more rye (or wheat) but not much more. As Mike says, Georgia Moon is the best way to demonstrate white dog, and much better than Everclear. The only differences are that slight difference in small grain content and the proof.
Last edited by cowdery on Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby TNbourbon » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:28 pm

gillmang wrote:Tim, who buys that very high abv Everclear?

What do they use it for?

How does its price compare to inexpensive vodka (once you allow for the proof difference)?

Gary


Gary, I've heard buyers claim two uses: industrial cleaning, and industrial punchbowls -- in the latter case, the PGN takes the place of multiple bottles of vodka.
We sell a couple of decent low-priced vodkas -- Polar Ice and Svedka -- for under $13 per 750ml. Everclear, or its equivalent, Gem Clear, runs about $20.
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GNS

Unread postby Bourbon Joe » Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:10 pm

Many years ago, when I worked in the R&D lab as a chemical analyst, around Christmas time we would make Tang Slushes. Remember Tang? It was that orange powder that you mixed with water. Well we mixed it with 190 proof grain, a little water and ice in a blender. Let's put it this way....you did not want accurate analysis around Christmas time in our lab.
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Unread postby EllenJ » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:50 am

Despite the fact that some delayed-pubescent college students (along with their followers and younger brethren) (and me once upon a time, to tell the truth) love the idea of proving their virility by demonstrating their tolerance to such products as Everclear (or Booker's, George T. Stagg, W.Larue Weller, Bacardi 151, or other high-alcohol liquor), there is a very practical reason why any bartender should have plenty of GNS onhand. As Chuck points out, Everclear is nothing more than undiluted Vodka. And as Pappy Van Winkle pointed out, why pay whiskey prices for water? An ounce of Everclear equals two ounces of 100-proof vodka in any mixed drink that uses vodka, at less than twice the cost. Therefore, instantly cutting costs by over 50% at the same time as allowing your bar to present to its customers drinks made with 100-proof, rather than diluted, vodka. Win-win. Regardless of how beautiful the bottle displayed is (and that tradition goes all the way back to the whiskey backbar decanters of the 1800s), the fact is that Everclear (or bulk GNS) is exactly the same as Grey Goose if mixed in a drink (the difference when taken straight at 80 proof is the additional filtration, but that goes out the window as soon as you add another ingredient).
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