Can cheap make moderate better?

Discuss any bourbon related topics here that do not belong in a forum below.

Moderator: Squire

Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby Birdo » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:04 am

ET isn't swill. Its just cheap mainstream bourbon best for mixing. Sort of like Seagrams 7 or VO, short on taste but good enough for it's purpose and audience. It drinks.

I had it on the rocks, and that doesn't work. It's the whiskey served in the mint julep at Chruchill Downs, and I have had it like that too. THat was okay, but you are paying for the venue, not the drink.
User avatar
Birdo
Registered User
 
Posts: 526
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:28 pm

Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby Squire » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:03 pm

You know, I'd forgotten about those Juleps . . . well if it's good enough for the Derby.
Squire
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 772
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:04 pm
Location: Jackson, MS

Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby Mike » Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:47 pm

Some interesting observations in this post. To take things a wee bit further, can cheap, (90 proof VOB at about $10, even though no longer widely available) make an expensive 'experimental' bourbon better? Well.........

I took 20 ml of Woodford Reserve Master's Collection Four Grain and 30 ml of VOB, and behold, better than either.

Now, don't get me wrong, I may be among the few who truly like WRMC Four Grain 92.4 6 year old bourbon, or its unique qualities (not for everyday consumption, mind you). The remnants of the copper pot, which impart a 'metallic' twange not dissimiliar to tannins, and a slightly acidic component make the WRMC Four Grain its own animal, very much unlike most bourbons. My palate for reasons of pure luck, or, if you prefer, an indescriminateness bordering on promiscuousness, does not reject much in the way of new tastes.

Still, if its qualities can be combined with those of another, but somewhat flawed bourbon (VOB 90 Proof 6 year old), could they make the $89 cost of the WRMC Four Grain less difficult to bear? Might all not be retrieved?

Retrieved is in the mind of the beholder. The VOB adds some barrel qualities lacking in the WRMC Four Grain, but allows its twange to live on in a sweeter form. This vatting contains no bourbon older than 6 years, and, although not cheap by any means (because of the cost of the WRMC), it has the qualities of much older bourbon (my opinion), and I tend to favor those qualities.
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas
Mike
Registered User
 
Posts: 2231
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:36 pm
Location: Savannah, GA

Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby EllenJ » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:58 am

I really enjoy conversations like this. Savannah Mike has a way of providing provocative subjects that go beyond "what brand of bourbon should I be seen drinking?" and this is a good example. I apologize for jumping on J.P. back there a few posts ago -- you just pushed one of my "LOOKY-HERE!" buttons and that gave me the idea that you were more intolerant than you probably are (or I probably am). Although it IS true that one should be familiar with the whiskey one is berating (or praising, for that matter), and that familiarity means understanding its strengths as well as its weaknesses. And all products -- not just whiskey, either -- have both of those. It's just that we don't all see what we call "quality" the same way.

There are folks who buy (or dream of buying) the "best car" off the showroom floor.
If that were not true, there would be no need for showroom floors.

And then there are folks who prefer to buy a somewhat less-well-respected vehicle and do a little bit of custom or hotrod work. Maybe install a different engine, or do some sheetmetal shaping and fancy paint.

As with nearly all "enthusiasts", there are extremes, and MOST of us fall somewhere in between them, perhaps leaning more one way than the other.

I kind of think of myself as favoring the hotrod/custom view over what I might call the "store-bought", but not completely of couse. I certainly respect (and would LOVE to drive) a Maserati or even one of the sportier Beamers. And I very much enjoy a glass of fine VW or Thomas Handy -- right out of the bottle, thankyouverymuchsir. But I also admire a nicely-finished, choptop duece coupe with a modern, unleaded-gas-effecient-at-four-times-the-horsepower V8 (or even V6) installed. I certainly don't hold its total investment of about the same as a pair of Maserati mufflers against it. In fact, in many cases I would probably choose to drive the hot rod rather than the luxury coupe. Given the CHOICE, of course. Because I'm not in the economic group of people who have such a choice. But at least I THINK I'd enjoy, for example, a hotrod Ford with a Cadillac engine more than either the Ford or the Cadillac itself.

Maybe it's my "inner woman". You know, the one who's not interested in the preppie guy who's going to be a gynocologist because the guy she thinks is cute has full sleeve tats, various piercings, and a police record -- but she thinks he can be "saved".

I respect that.

I also respect that some folks believe a little TLC, some ingenuity and a 7/16" box end wrench can make that old beater into a faster and more comfortable vehicle than any of its component parts.

Or that installing a bit of really really GOOD whiskey that's a tad on the woody side into a glass (or bottle) of something that is, by itself, somewhat characterless can produce a whiskey that is, indeed, better than both.

Of course, scratch-built cars have no viable resale value. If that's what we're after, we'd be better off purchasing an expensive car, or an expensive bottle of bourbon, right off the shelf. But if the idea is to DRIVE a fun car -- or to drink/offer a delicious whiskey -- we might find more enjoyment in mixing up some of our own.
=JOHN=
(the "Jaye" part of "L 'n' J dot com")
http://www.ellenjaye.com
User avatar
EllenJ
Registered User
 
Posts: 866
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:00 pm
Location: Ohio-occupied Northern Kentucky (Cincinnati)

Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby JPBoston » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:28 am

Hardly a snob.... a bit surprised at the vitriol in the post directed at me, but whatever. I simply offered up an actual straight bourbon, that costs the same amount of money, rather than something that tastes like a 50/50 mix of bourbon and vodka. To each his own.

For the record, EWB is the bourbon I've purchased the most, in my 2+ years of interest in the hobby. Buy it by the handle for $15. Recently here, I said something along the lines of "You can pry my EWB from my cold dead fingers" when somebody else said that no bourbons should be allowed to be sold that are under 100 proof. I know, total snobbery on my part. Can't you just envision me with a group of old rich guys, singing praises of $15, 86 proof juice?

AND -- I just recently tried ET on whim, and was disgusted by the pure ethanol finish... tasted just like vodka. My opinion. Pretty sure I (previously) backed that up with a mini-review here on the forum somewhere. It's the only whiskey I've ever poured out in disgust. And I've found things to enjoy while sipping OGD 86, Benchmark, and JBW... so again, I hardly fall in 'snob' territory. In fact, you could say I indeed am speaking from experience... I'm just not one to bloviate in order to 'hear myself talk'. How 'bout you?

Lastly --- The only review I've written for this site is for a bottle of Fighting Cock, purchased for a whopping $13.99 (unfortunately, jumped up to $16.99 here recently). Blew my mind, as you can see in the review. Nothing but snobbery, to be sure.

You couldn't have 'gotten me' more wrong. I'm a value guy. I spend most my bourbon drinking time in the middle-to-bottom shelves. So, even though 2+ years is fairly new to bourbon enthusiasm, I'd like to think I'm allowed to throw my OPINION in the ring, once in awhile. Thought I'd been around here long enough to do so without pages upon pages of facts to support my case. I hardly insulted anyone (other than the distiller of ET, I suppose).

Keep on drinking that ET though, EJ, it's doing wonders for your manners.

ADDED:

"Isn't it great that mid-shelf bourbon starts right at about $20, if not less? Take that, scotch!!!" -- Me, very recently, in the 'shopping the bottom shelf' thread. Call me: Super Snob.
JPBoston
Registered User
 
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:33 pm
Location: Glendale, AZ

Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby Squire » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:16 am

Certainly blending to strength is a good idea. You don't have to be a great chief to build a great meal and bring together diverse elements of different Bourbons of any price seems to me a very sound principle.
Squire
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 772
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:04 pm
Location: Jackson, MS

Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby EllenJ » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:02 am

J.P.
I hope you wrote this post BEFORE reading my later one.
I was a bit uh... touchy?... in the earlier one, huh? Sorry 'bout that.

Early Times strikes a personal sore spot, because I remember when it was a more respectable straight bourbon whiskey. That was when Old Crow and Ancient Age (and Wild Turkey and even Jack Daniels, too, as a matter of fact) were whiskies to be proud of. And Old Overholt; ESPECIALLY Old Overholt (National Distillers' version). They've all dumbed down since those days. And especially since I feel that ET is a favorite target of folks who consider the brand to be "beneath their dignity" because it is not a "straight" bourbon (at least the normal U.S. version -- overseas it's always been).

I didn't mean to lump you into that category just because you used the brand as an example.

Well, yes, I guess I DID mean to do that, but I SHOULDN'T have meant to.

Speaking of whiskies whose reputations are affected by changing their legal status, what do you think of brands that have managed NOT to lose their respectability, despite such changes? To me, the shining example is Jack Daniels -- Brown Forman's OTHER whiskey that is not identified as "straight" (bourbon, Tennessee, or whatever). By law (not saying that this is the case, but also not saying that it isn't) Jack Daniel's doesn't have to be aged in new charred oak barrels at all. By law, it can have caramel coloring added; it can be mixed with or flavored with anything other than neutral spirits (liquid smoke, for example), and with no age statement (other than the Old No. 7 implecation -- see Wild Turkey's Old No. 8 for another example) it could be just as far from the original JD product as B/F's other non-straight whiskey.

As for quality, E.T. is targeted to folks who use American whiskey as the base alcohol for mixed drinks. It's price point is lower than that of Kessler or Seagram's 7 Crown, while tasting noticeably more "bourbon-like" than either. And way more so than Windsor or B/F's own Canadian Mist, both of which are intended for the same customer base. In fact, Early Times tastes more "bourbon-like" to me than does Basil Hayden, a straight whiskey and a high-rye-content one as well. But somehow E.T. got the label of "sell-out" tacked onto it and many people who don't know any better like to use it as a bad example. I regret implying that you were among those people; please accept my apology.
=JOHN=
(the "Jaye" part of "L 'n' J dot com")
http://www.ellenjaye.com
User avatar
EllenJ
Registered User
 
Posts: 866
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:00 pm
Location: Ohio-occupied Northern Kentucky (Cincinnati)

Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby 393foureyedfox » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:05 pm

EllenJ wrote:
I also respect that some folks believe a little TLC, some ingenuity and a 7/16" box end wrench can make that old beater into a faster and more comfortable vehicle than any of its component parts.

Or that installing a bit of really really GOOD whiskey that's a tad on the woody side into a glass (or bottle) of something that is, by itself, somewhat characterless can produce a whiskey that is, indeed, better than both.

Of course, scratch-built cars have no viable resale value. If that's what we're after, we'd be better off purchasing an expensive car, or an expensive bottle of bourbon, right off the shelf. But if the idea is to DRIVE a fun car -- or to drink/offer a delicious whiskey -- we might find more enjoyment in mixing up some of our own.



while i am not that way with bourbon/whiskey......yet at least......i am that way with cars. strange to read this today, as i just got the electronic overdrive and speedo finished and working in the 66 Plymouth that I put a late model fuel injected engine into recently. also got the rear disc/posi rear end finished.......but thinking i will change the setup to another style, as im not completely satisfied with it as is. old cars.......they are never finished, you always want to do something else to them! next up is adding cruise control
393foureyedfox
Registered User
 
Posts: 460
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:56 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby JPBoston » Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:20 am

EllenJ wrote:J.P.
please accept my apology.


Accepted.
JPBoston
Registered User
 
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:33 pm
Location: Glendale, AZ

Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby Squire » Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:53 am

I would far, far rather the majors produce a 3 year, Old Style whisky for general use as opposed to these dreadful GNS based blends. I don't see that happening but wish Early Times more success if only for that reason, promoting the concept.
Squire
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 772
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:04 pm
Location: Jackson, MS

Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby PaulO » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:00 am

I actually liked the Early Times 354 Bourbon when I tried it. I think it's one of the better 80 proofers. I guess I'm like the guy on the Dos Equis commercial; I don't normally drink 80 proof, but when I do, it's ET 354. :geek:
PaulO
Registered User
 
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:02 pm
Location: Greenwood Indiana

Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby Birdo » Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:11 pm

Squire wrote:I would far, far rather the majors produce a 3 year, Old Style whisky for general use as opposed to these dreadful GNS based blends. I don't see that happening but wish Early Times more success if only for that reason, promoting the concept.



I didn't realize ET wasn't bourbon but is actually only a whisky. From ET web site: Early Times Kentucky Whisky is distilled, aged a minimum of three years and barreled in used oak barrels at the Early Times Distillery in Shively, Kentucky.

They use used barrels so it's not legally bourbon. Used barrels would dilute the flavor.

Squire: You might like some of the Heaven Hill offerings. I have a bottle labeled 'Old Heaven Hill'. It has a light brown label and is BIB 100 proof with no age statement. I like it fine on the rocks. Enough sweetness, spice and thickness to make it good. It's better than HH White label which is overly dry but mixes fine.

All of the HH labels is really confusing. :?
User avatar
Birdo
Registered User
 
Posts: 526
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:28 pm

Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby PaulO » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:29 pm

There are two versions of ET: Kentucky Whiskey (used cooperage), and 354 bourbon. Just saying.
PaulO
Registered User
 
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:02 pm
Location: Greenwood Indiana

Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby JPBoston » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:02 am

PaulO wrote:There are two versions of ET: Kentucky Whiskey (used cooperage), and 354 bourbon. Just saying.


I think the assumption is, unless stated to be the 354 (which seems to be less widely available) then you're discussing regular ol' ET. I mean, that's what the extra numbers are there for, correct?

And not to re-stoke the flames, but in my humble opinion: if we can't call the current, standard, ET "swill".... I don't know what the hell we can. I just don't see the reason for its existence, with actual straight bourbon available for the same price (such as EWB, OGD 80, Benchmark, JBW, etc). If it was in any real way cheaper, then I'd understand. But for the same price, I'll support the distilleries/brands that put that little extra effort and expense to make legit straight bourbon.
JPBoston
Registered User
 
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:33 pm
Location: Glendale, AZ

Re: Can cheap make moderate better?

Unread postby gillmang » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:04 am

I've read in recent years that Early Times Kentucky Whiskey is a combination of bourbon mash whiskey (i.e., whiskey aged in used barrels) and straight bourbon. Chuck Cowdery's book talks about this IIRC, I think the mix was 3:1 bourbon to bourbon mash. Or somewhere at any rate he was written about this.

The website for the brand, in terms of the Kentucky Whiskey, refers only to barreling in used barrels, so perhaps it is 100% aged in those barrels today, of that I'm not sure (but I'd think the formulation mentioned by Chuck wouldn't have changed).

The 354 iteration is a true, all-bourbon, I believe 4 years old. The Early Times discussed earlier in the thread (the one John was referring to I'm quite sure, and I was) is the whiskey, not the bourbon. The whiskey is a fairly ordinary drink, once again I don't see why you couldn't improve it by adding more bourbon - more of what is or was already in it. I'd do it if I happened to have a bottle of the ET around and couldn't find another use for it. I had the 354 once at a SB Gazebo, I didn't think it was that great either to be honest, but it comes at a fair price and offers a good alternative to other straight bourbons in its price range.

Gary
Last edited by gillmang on Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
gillmang
Vatman
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:44 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Bourbon, Straight

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 32 guests

cron