Pappy video

Discuss any bourbon related topics here that do not belong in a forum below.

Moderators: Brewer, brendaj

Pappy video

Unread postby jimtheteacher » Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:04 pm

Hey there y'all

I've been enjoying bourbon since 1980. While there are a number of tasty pours out there, a few years ago I developed a possibly unhealthy relationship with the Van Winkle line. Recently I wrote and recorded a song which combines some Pappy history with my deep hearted appreciation for what Julian manages to coax out of those barrels. I then added video and uploaded the thing to YouTube. I thought some of you might enjoy it--preferably while sipping a 15, 20, or, if you're real lucky, a 23.

Drink up!

Jim the Teacher

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-PbhMCXfhU
jimtheteacher
Registered User
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:50 pm

Re: Pappy video

Unread postby EllenJ » Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:13 pm

Jim,
Outstanding video slideshow! I loved it.
As a fellow bass-man, I'll bet Bunghole does, too.

It's been a long time since I upgraded our own website's page on Old Rip Van Winkle... like over twelve years!!

http://ellenjaye.com/oldrip.htm

It's about time I at least added the fact that the Commonwealth distillery no longer exists and Julian's been working with (and located at) Buffalo Trace for nearly a decade. When I do upgrade the page, I'd like to put a link to your video on it (don't count on anything happening soon, though; I'm notoriously slow in getting my "round tuits" together).

Not that it should matter to your song of praise, of course, but I'm sure you do realize that ALL of the "Pappy" products are Julian's work. Regardless of what Julian might insist (and he does), the fact is that his grandfather (despite his talent for merchandising a premium product in what was then a very "un"premium line of spirits) never really had the same genius that Julian III possesses and continues to display. None of the bourbons you are enjoying were the result of Pappy; all of them are Julian III's. And (IMNotSoHO) all of them are superior to anything that Stitzel-Weller ever put out directly. I'm sure to get some negative feedback for saying that, but that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
=JOHN=
(the "Jaye" part of "L 'n' J dot com")
http://www.ellenjaye.com
User avatar
EllenJ
Registered User
 
Posts: 866
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:00 pm
Location: Ohio-occupied Northern Kentucky (Cincinnati)

Re: Pappy video

Unread postby Mike » Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:37 pm

Great little video, and nice follow on notes too, John.......... I learned some good stuff. I certainly agree that Julian Van Winkle III has a gift for offering great bourbons. The Van Winkle stuff I still have I do hoard.
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas
Mike
Registered User
 
Posts: 2106
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:36 pm
Location: Conyers, GA

Re: Pappy video

Unread postby Bourbon Joe » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:59 pm

EllenJ wrote: And (IMNotSoHO) all of them are superior to anything that Stitzel-Weller ever put out directly. I'm sure to get some negative feedback for saying that, but that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.


:spammer: :occasion9:
Joe
Colonel Joseph B. "Bourbon Joe" Koch

Bourbon, It's cheaper than therapy!
User avatar
Bourbon Joe
Erudite Bourbonite
Erudite Bourbonite
 
Posts: 1759
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:02 pm
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania

Re: Pappy video

Unread postby EllenJ » Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:09 pm

Bourbon Joe wrote: :spammer: :occasion9: Joe

Hee-Hee! See? Tol' ya so! :lol:
=JOHN=
(the "Jaye" part of "L 'n' J dot com")
http://www.ellenjaye.com
User avatar
EllenJ
Registered User
 
Posts: 866
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:00 pm
Location: Ohio-occupied Northern Kentucky (Cincinnati)

Re: Pappy video

Unread postby bourbonv » Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:16 pm

John,
I will disagree with your statement because you have not tasted everything that came out of Stitzel-Weller so you really have no basis for the statement. I will agree with you that what Julian has bottled is as good or better than most anything that has come from Stitzel-Weller. There was a bottle of 15yo bonded Fitz that would be very hard to beat.
Mike Veach
"Our people live almost exclusively on whiskey" - E H Taylor, Jr. 25 April 1873
User avatar
bourbonv
Registered User
 
Posts: 4047
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: Louisville, Ky.

Re: Pappy video

Unread postby Bourbon Joe » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:33 pm

bourbonv wrote:John,
I will agree with you that what Julian has bottled is as good or better than most anything that has come from Stitzel-Weller.


MOST of it WAS Stitzel-Weller. At least his best stuff.
Joe
Colonel Joseph B. "Bourbon Joe" Koch

Bourbon, It's cheaper than therapy!
User avatar
Bourbon Joe
Erudite Bourbonite
Erudite Bourbonite
 
Posts: 1759
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:02 pm
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania

Re: Pappy video

Unread postby EllenJ » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:43 pm

bourbonv wrote:John,
I will disagree with your statement because you have not tasted everything that came out of Stitzel-Weller so you really have no basis for the statement. I will agree with you that what Julian has bottled is as good or better than most anything that has come from Stitzel-Weller. There was a bottle of 15yo bonded Fitz that would be very hard to beat.

Okay Mike, you're flagged. No more 1936 Old Fitzgerald for you. I suppose that wasn't really S/W juice, huh? :?
No more 1971 pre-Norton Simon Old Fitz, either, eh? :?
Or Weller's Original 107 Barrel Proof (the '60s pre-curser to Weller Antique)? :?

You just happen to have a long-standing fixation on one particular release of some very non-typically old S/W whiskey and your use of that to represent the normal product is silly. It feels like an insult to those of us who know better, and quite beneath the dignity of an authoritive figure such as yourself. Shame on you. :!:

And I especially want you to know that your post hurt me greatly. While I certainly don't mind (and even encourage) your disagreeing with me about a point or two of taste or history, please DON'T be publishing B.S. about my lack of "basis" for not having tasted every example of S/W whiskey ever released (as if you have). I've certainly tasted enough of them to know what I'm writing about, not to mention sharing all them with you!

Just what were YOU drinking when you wrote that??
=JOHN=
(the "Jaye" part of "L 'n' J dot com")
http://www.ellenjaye.com
User avatar
EllenJ
Registered User
 
Posts: 866
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:00 pm
Location: Ohio-occupied Northern Kentucky (Cincinnati)

Re: Pappy video

Unread postby bourbonv » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:33 am

John,
What were you drinking when you wrote this? You made a blanket statement that Julian's product is better than ANYTHING that Stitzel-Weller ever put out under its own banner. I simply said you can not say that because you have not tasted everything they put out under their own banner. Have you tasted the Weller barrel proof 110? How about the Weller barrel proof 109? Carolina Club? Kentucky Oaks? Mammoth Cave? There are a lot of products put out by Stitzel-Weller so this blanket statement is without basis.
Mike Veach
"Our people live almost exclusively on whiskey" - E H Taylor, Jr. 25 April 1873
User avatar
bourbonv
Registered User
 
Posts: 4047
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: Louisville, Ky.

Re: Pappy video

Unread postby Mike » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:30 pm

Time for Mike and John to drink together. Two great guys, gentlemen in every sense of that word, and longtime friends. This is one misunderstanding that needs to die now. Call a halt now, gents, and agree to disagree. This is ground that does not need to be covered.
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rage at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas
Mike
Registered User
 
Posts: 2106
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:36 pm
Location: Conyers, GA

Re: Pappy video

Unread postby bourbonv » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:31 pm

John feels that I insulted him and his knowledge in this post and for that I apologize. I in no why meant to imply that John does not know anything about bourbon or in anyway imply he does not have a huge and fascinating collection of whiskeys. I hope nobody else thinks any less of John because of anything I wrote. John I am sorry. I would have said something earlier except for computer failure followed by a busy schedule.
Mike Veach
"Our people live almost exclusively on whiskey" - E H Taylor, Jr. 25 April 1873
User avatar
bourbonv
Registered User
 
Posts: 4047
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: Louisville, Ky.

Re: Pappy video

Unread postby gillmang » Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:32 am

I'd like to continue the discussion of the underlying point and hopefully all personal animadversions can be avoided. After all, we are here as a bunch of knowledgeable people to discuss something we care a lot about. Each sees it from his own standpoint, i.e., of taste experience (indeed taste memory), background and knowledge; no one can claim a "summum" of tasting experience or distillery knowledge. Hopefully, after all is said and done, some conclusions can be drawn. And these needn't be - almost by definition won't be - uniform.

In my opinion, even during the period when JVW III was using whiskeys distilled only at D.S.P. 16, essentially he created something different than the core product associated with that renowned distillery when it was independent and until 1992.

The core product was Old Fitzgerald Prime, which varied in age at times I believe from 4-7 years old and came in different proofs. I remember liking the 86 and 90 a lot but not the 80 so much. Yes there was the 1849 and the limited editions of VOF, VXOF and VVOF, aged from 8-15 years with the occasional older whiskey coming out of S-W. Someone on SB found a 19 year old iteration from the late 60's, I think under the Weller imprint. But these were curios, they were intended to make some extra coin and for the people out there who like or will buy very old whiskey.

They never bore the standard for Stitzel-Weller. The Prime and to be sure the standard BIB, did.

Indeed, I recall never much liking anything 8 years and older from S-W: it all seemed to pale by comparison with the nutty, elegant, deep-flavoured Old Fitzgerald Prime.

After Julian's father started the Old Rip Van Winkle business, and as Julian and Preston have developed it, the family specialized in very old bourbon. The youngest was and is 10 years old, rather older than OF Prime or the regular bond ever was. As for the family's range of bourbons aged 12-23 years old, these were way older than the S-W flagships except for the odd limited release at the fringe of the company's range.

I agree with John that Julian is largely responsible for the tremendous success of these labels. He may have taken some inspiration from the comparatively few extra-aged bourbons that S-W had released in its day, but regardless, he ended up creating a new segment in the American bourbon business, one of very old bourbons. Sure, some very old bourbon had always been around indeed even in the 1800's, but it was a strange animal, not something that was an established sub-set of the American bourbon business much less a staple of the same. Indeed, very old whiskey was disdained by some knowledgeable people. Charlie Thomasson, a long time distiller at Willett, wrote in the 1960's, "...if you want the best whiskey with the best taste for the best price, get four-to-seven-year-old whiskey, for a seven year old whiskey has reached its peak of bouquet". Thomasson also wrote that old whiskey, which he defined as between 8 and 20 years, would go down smoothly but left a "punky" (off) aftertaste due to barrel deterioration caused by loss of tannins to the whiskey over the extended aging period. Jos. Fleischman, a whisky broker and blender active in New York in the 1880's, decried very old whiskey as something good only for blending.

Now, that was their opinion but many in the business shared it. Some others didn't, and still don't, and so today people have the choice to buy (especially) 12-23 year old bourbon if they can pay the ever-higher prices for this category.

But all this to say, you can't compare the outputs of the original S-W operation and those of Julian's business. They are two different things, representing two ends of the bourbon maturation spectrum. I never had a whiskey from Julian that was as good as the Prime 90 proof I remember in the 1970's. I never had a (reasonably available) whiskey from the classic era of S-W that could compare in age and style to Lot "B", the most successful of Julian's products IMO. Again, there were a handful of 8-15 year S-W products in its heyday, and the odd older one it seems, but these were atypical in terms of the house style and main moneymaker.

Thus, if one is going to compare the two operations, then you need to taste like with like. The purpose of that is very limited and just for educational purposes amongst the cognoscenti. No matter who "won", it wouldn't prove anything of general application.

Does anyone here have a bottle of VVOF 15 and Pappy 15? Or a bottle of S-W-era Weller 19 years old - I think that was the name of the circa-1970 S-W 19 year old bourbon mentioned recently on SB - and a Pappy 20? Even a VVOF 12 vs. a Lot B will do.

Go to it, let us know what you think. It will be a valuable exercise to those here who care deeply about American whiskey and its history but that's all it is, it won't prove a general point because the larger issue is apples and oranges.

Gary
User avatar
gillmang
Vatman
 
Posts: 2109
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:44 pm

Re: Pappy video

Unread postby EllenJ » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:25 pm

First, MikeV: THANK YOU!! It's so good to know you still value our friendship.
As a wrote you privately, I wasn't really "insulted"; I was deeply hurt. And then when you didn't post anything and didn't answer my e-mails I felt as though you were casting aside all those years. I didn't know about your difficulty in maintaining an internet presence and I'm glad (and honored) that you've addressed this so quickly after acquiring a new computer. I'm certain that your time to sit around and e-chat has also diminished logrithmically since the book has been released (and OF COURSE I own a copy. Pre-ordered it from Amazon the minute they listed it). Sorry you won't be with us in June, but you can count on a visit from Me 'n the Goddess someday between now and then. Dinner at Bourbons Bistro. On a weekday evening, of course.

Now, as for Gary and the original topic...
gillmang wrote:...essentially he created something different than the core product associated with that renowned distillery when it was independent and until 1992.

The core product was Old Fitzgerald Prime, which varied in age at times I believe from 4-7 years old and came in different proofs... They never bore the standard for Stitzel-Weller. The Prime and to be sure the standard BIB, did.

Actually, what was most renowned about Stitzel-Weller came to an end in 1972, when the Van Winkle family heirs sold it. It really wasn't the same since Pappy himself passed away in 1965. Julian II did the best he could, I'm sure, including marketing new brands like Prime, but and by the time Norton-Simon took over the brand (and the distillery itself) it was nowhere near what it had been. And especially after Guiness/U.D./Diageo got finished with it. So-called Stitzel-Weller bourbon from the early '70s to the early '90s was not as far off as the current version, but it was certainly not the same stuff.

...Indeed, very old whiskey was disdained by some knowledgeable people. Charlie Thomasson, a long time distiller at Willett, wrote ... that old whiskey, which he defined as between 8 and 20 years, would go down smoothly but left a "punky" (off) aftertaste due to barrel deterioration caused by loss of tannins to the whiskey over the extended aging period.

Heh,heh. Yup! Charlie may have used the term "punky", and you & I'd say "barrel-ly" or "over-oaked", but Even Kulsveen turned the bourbon-marketing world on it's ear (mostly in Japan, but that was plenty good enough then) by selling brand after brand of that exact same kind of whiskey! And today? No one takes 4 to 7 year old whiskey seriously anymore, do we? (Yes, that's exaggerated, but you get my point).

...Does anyone here have a bottle of VVOF 15 and Pappy 15? Or a bottle of S-W-era Weller 19 years old - I think that was the name of the circa-1970 S-W 19 year old bourbon mentioned recently on SB - and a Pappy 20? Even a VVOF 12 vs. a Lot B will do...

Well, (as you know) I have current (BT) Pappy 20-year-old. And also RVW Lawrenceburg 20. And also RVW Lawrenceburg GREEN BOTTLE 20, and they're all very different. I have Lot B from L'Burg, which will knock your socks off, and also from Frankfort, which is quite tasty. I would LOVE to taste a side-by-side of VVOF 15 and Pappy 15, if the VVOF was from before 1965. But Pappy 15 -- which has changed since Julian came to Buffalo Trace -- holds the honor, in my experience, of being the only really fine bourbon I know that has IMPROVED with the changes of time.
I don't know why.

Anyway, that's all I want to say from this opinionated and stubborn old f@#t to two of his best (and equally S & O) YOUNGER f@#t friends.
Gary, can't wait 'til summer.
Mike, betcha I see you before then.
=JOHN=
(the "Jaye" part of "L 'n' J dot com")
http://www.ellenjaye.com
User avatar
EllenJ
Registered User
 
Posts: 866
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:00 pm
Location: Ohio-occupied Northern Kentucky (Cincinnati)

Re: Pappy video

Unread postby gillmang » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:11 pm

John, thanks. I thought Prime was introduced in the 60's, I am pretty sure it predates the sale to Norton Simon.

In any case, I have tasted a number of S-W products from the 50's and 60's and didn't see a huge difference from the early 70's distillations I would have bought circa-1980. Certainly today the brand is much reduced, but I feel I have tasted S-W in its prime ahem, and it was plenty good.

Yes, as you say, the punky (aged/oaky) taste has become the new "must have", however with the shortage of aged stocks, perhaps things will come full circle. I happen to agree largely with Thomasson although sometimes an older whiskey can excel. Lot B in particular, even though no longer S-W, is plenty good certainly. Wheat-recipe whiskeys seem to take longer aging better than rye-recipe ones, but I still say that Old Fitzgerald Prime 90 proof as distilled around 1970 was probably the best bourbon I ever had.

I'll be in Bardstown for Sampler at end of April. Usually I don't attend Sampler itself, but do consider coming down to Bardstown that weekend, if you attended Sampler I'd change my mind and go that Saturday night!

Gary

P.S. If a BE event is actually held in June, I will try to attend that, but no date has been fixed I believe and in any case, first things first! :)
User avatar
gillmang
Vatman
 
Posts: 2109
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:44 pm


Return to Bourbon, Straight

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests