Whiskey Collectors As Criminals.

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Whiskey Collectors As Criminals.

Unread postby cowdery » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:18 am

I have been thinking about this a lot because of the Jack Daniel's case.

If you have ever sold or traded a bottle of whiskey (assuming you don't have a license to sell alcohol), you have committed a crime.

How do you feel about that?
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Re: Whiskey Collectors As Criminals.

Unread postby Dump Bucket » Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:14 am

tbd
Last edited by Dump Bucket on Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Whiskey Collectors As Criminals.

Unread postby Sourmashed » Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:42 am

Originally I was going to post about how buying whiskey from ebay is a "victimless" crime. But you could argue that my purchase of a bottle from John Doe and having it shipped to me deprives my home state of tax revenue. Apart from saying it is a victimless crime it can be further rationalized by telling yourself that the few bottles that you buy outside of package stores in your home state isn't really going to make that much difference. The ratio of bottles purchased ilegally across the US vs. ones purchased through proper channels is likely ridiculously small. Collecting by nature is kind of an obsessive behaviour. Personally, if there is a bottle of whiskey that I have my mind set on short of stealing it or getting raked over the coals on the price I would try to find a way to get it. Your question is food for thought, though. Ever smoked a Cuban cigar? Anywhere?

I would like to ask a question. I am not asking this to be a smart arse. Also, I am making assumptions in order to gain a better understanding of how this system works: As someone who makes his living writing about whiskey do you ever ilegally receive bottles for review or as "gifts" from industry insiders? Are there special legal provisions for shipping product to writers/reviewers? If not, how do you feel about breaking the law regularly essentially as part of your job?
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Re: Whiskey Collectors As Criminals.

Unread postby cowdery » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:58 pm

Producers are permitted to give me samples and they do it all the time. It's perfectly legal. They are, first of all, licensed to operate a distilled spirits business and part of that involves giving samples to people. Fed Ex has no trouble accepting the shipments and they have a big sticker on them saying what they are. They have to be received by someone over 21. That's about it. Short answer is, yes, that's all legal.

In fact, it's a joke between me and the guys at the UPS Store, because I'll walk in and they'll announce, "you got more booze today."

One reason I feel comfortable talking about this is because I'm not a collector and don't do any of the illegal things. I'm also a lawyer and fairly high-visibility in this business. If I got caught breaking liquor laws I would, in addition to the other penalties, probably be disbarred.

Someone mentioned possession of Cuban cigars and that's a better analogy than traffic tickets, as most vehicle offenses aren't criminal. That's the main reason I started this thread. It's not the same as jaywalking, people. For this they can put you in jail.
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Re: Whiskey Collectors As Criminals.

Unread postby Dump Bucket » Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:06 am

Chuck, I beleive you can be put in jail for breaking any law (including jaywalking).
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Re: Whiskey Collectors As Criminals.

Unread postby cowdery » Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:33 pm

Dump Bucket wrote:Chuck, I beleive you can be put in jail for breaking any law (including jaywalking).


Believe whatever you want, but it isn't true.
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Re: Whiskey Collectors As Criminals.

Unread postby Dump Bucket » Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:47 pm

My response was just for information Chuck, nothing else... you are the one that posed the question so you have to expect some pushback.

Just for additional info:

North America
Almost all urban areas in the United States and Canada require pedestrians to cross at crosswalks or intersections and to obey pedestrian traffic signals. Jaywalking is primarily considered an infraction but in some jurisdictions, it is a misdemeanor or requires a court appearance. It typically carries a warning or modest fine or not more than one week in jail.

Penalties for jaywalking vary by municipality. For example, in Tempe, AZ, as of June 2006 jaywalking carried fines up to $118. A sampling of other U.S. cities found fines ranging from $57 to $750.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Jaywalking


It all depends on local and state law. In AZ, anything that can get you a ticket can get you taken to jail on the spot. They can lock you up until a judge is available to here your case. Signing of the ticket is good faith that you will show up to court or pay the fine.

If you want a debate on the topic, use your Local state's laws and pose what do you think. Your general question

If you have ever sold or traded a bottle of whiskey (assuming you don't have a license to sell alcohol), you have committed a crime.

How do you feel about that?


is vague and may not be true in all areas.

How far do you think this goes? If I had my neighbor grab me some MM from Costco and I paid him back, am I not buying liquor from him? Did I break the law in Chicago?
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Re: Whiskey Collectors As Criminals.

Unread postby cowdery » Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:51 am

I'm not an expert on the jaywalking laws of the various states and municipalities. That in all American jurisdictions there are both criminal and non-criminal offenses is beyond argument, even if what they are varies from state to state. Also, there are instances where a person may be held for some period of time on suspicion or for other administrative purposes, but that is not a punishment levied after a conviction for an offense. I admit that going to jail is going to jail, but if you're going to get hung up on the fact that under some circumstances jaywalkers can get thrown in jail, you could not possibly be missing the point any more completely.

I'm a bit more expert on the liquor laws, which do vary from state to state, but I know of no state in which it is not a criminal offense to sell alcohol without a license. Illinois, Arizona, all of them.

Yes, if your friend buys alcohol and you then buy that alcohol from your friend, your friend has committed a crime. I defy anyone to show me where that is not true, anywhere in the United States, because that is a sale of alcohol without a license.
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Re: Whiskey Collectors As Criminals.

Unread postby Dump Bucket » Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:35 pm

Chuck,
I very much get your point and that is why I think the absurdity of the Jaywalking reference is valid.

To have a law that is so confining that more folks break the law than not, is ridiculous.

In AZ, it is against the law to give away alcohol period. If a store or bar has a "guess X and win a beer game" they could pay a $10K fine and loose their license. Even selling the liquor at a loss is question and a few bars that had penny beers and nickel shots were warned. The way the law is written, anyone giving liquor away is a crime.

So anytime someone throws a party and gives their guests beer, wine, bourbon etx, they are breaking the law. If you bring a side dish as your part of the party and the host gives you liquor, you have broken the law. The only way to no break the law is to bring your own booze and do not share.

Lets go one further, you go to dinner with a customer, client, friend, etc and you pick up dinner and they pick up drinks, quick pro quo, they sold you booze.

How can any a liquor law stand up to judgment in a court of law with so much constriction that they do not pass the "makes any since test"

I am not pushing back to just be a pain, I think that the question is vague and when you really break it down, almost everyone is breaking the liquor law. So should the question be:

Almost everyone is breaking the law, did you know it and how do you feel?
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Re: Whiskey Collectors As Criminals.

Unread postby cowdery » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:21 am

It sounds like there are some issues in Arizona. What you describe isn't generally true in the rest of the country. Things like that usually straighten themselves out, though it often takes a few people getting their lives really screwed up before somebody says, "that isn't what the law is supposed to do."

The implication of the Jack Daniel's case is something very different, because it's not like buying your buddies a round of beers, which you are right cannot possibly be illegal in a free country. To carry that analogy through, if you swap bottles with the same guys you watch football with, you'll never run afoul of the law. But if you try to pursue whiskey collecting exactly the same way a coin collector pursues coin collecting, or a gun collector pursues gun collecting, or a collector of antique chamber pots pursues antique chamber pot collecting, you risk arrest with every transaction. Even gun collectors have more freedom to pursue their hobby than whiskey collectors do. They have to jump through a lot of hoops, but they can buy and sell with other collectors. There are no hoops a whiskey collector can jump through to get legal.

You don't know where or when enforcement might happen. You're into it. You're doing a lot of transactions. You're somewhere in between a hobby and a business. You think you're under the radar. (They always do.) Boom. One minute you're on the 2005 GTS gravy train, the next you're looking at the wrong side of the gray bar hotel.

I think we also saw in the Piper case that the ABC has to tread lightly, because that kind of thing can generate a lot of public support. There is some tension there, but that doesn't count for much if the ABC is all up in your shit.
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Re: Whiskey Collectors As Criminals.

Unread postby Bas » Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:48 am

Found this thread a little late.


cowdery wrote:How do you feel about that?

Do you really want to know, haha

Actually it is a bunch of crap,
If collectors can't buy their stuff anymore, sales will go down.
You can't expect me to fly to the states up and down just to buy 1 or 2 bottles.
Now the distilleries can get rid of their surplus by bringin out some collectables ( your quote, Chuck).
Sales down, Taxes down. So what is the benefit of this tight law pursuit. They piss in their own soup.
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