Not mine, but I'm curious about it. Also suspicious.

Have an old/rare bottle you'd like some more info on?

Moderator: Squire

Not mine, but I'm curious about it. Also suspicious.

Unread postby shoshani » Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:59 pm

I bumped into an auction online that kind of threw me, so I thought I'd toss it up to the great minds here.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Extremely-Rare-1876-Old-Crow-Sour-Mash-1-2-Pint-Whiskey_W0QQitemZ300255419570QQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

What this is advertised as is an 1876 bottle of Old Crow, for which the seller thinks it "may be one of the earliest specimens from the Old Crow distillery since its inception". The seller is so certain of this that $9,500.00 (that's nine and a half kilobucks) is the asking price.

There are several things that I think may be wrong with this picture, which is why I'm bringing it up. No, I have no interest in buying this; if I had $9,500 free and clear with nothing else pressing I think I'd be finding me some vintage A. Ph. Stitzel product, or Stitzel-Weller. Or some pot-still Herbst Old Fitz.

At any rate, this is what I'm noticing:

1. There does not seem to be any indication that this is from 1876.

2. There appears neither the name of the distillery nor the wholesale bottler. Were this from 1876, chances are it would have been bottled by the regional wholesaler, some of which are listed on pre-pro.com . Most of these distributors proudly put their own name on some vintage labels for which they owned sales rights within their territories. Distilleries did not usually bottle; it was George Garvin Brown who really got that off the ground, and even then he wasn't a distiller yet.

3. Age statement? (That likker looks a mite pale to me)

4. Proof statement?

Given the widespread fraudulent marketing of whiskey in the late 1800s, I actually suspect this bottle of being a vintage impostor, something put together over a century ago to pass off as the real thing and now hoodwinking an unsuspecting auction seller today. I'll never know on my own, of course, but with the research-oriented historians that gather here (Prof. Veach, Chuck Cowdery, Gary Gillman, John Lipman, et al), I figure someone might be able to set me straight on this curiosity.
shoshani
Registered User
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:51 am

Re: Not mine, but I'm curious about it. Also suspicious.

Unread postby ggilbertva » Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:42 pm

At first glance, it appears the cork has broken off yet there are no fragments in the bottle. I doubt the cork came that "short". I would also suspect that if it was really from 1876, the cork would have disintegrated long ago and the whiskey would have evaporated due to breakdown of the seal. Additionally, I would be surprised if a paper seal was used back then as the whiskey was not bottled by the distillery but by local wholesalers, merchants, saloons, etc. I could be wrong but I believe that's been the statements made about 19th century whiskey.

I too would be suspect and unless the seller has documented proof of it's age and origin, I would assume it to be fake. Maybe others more educated in older whiskey can comment.
User avatar
ggilbertva
Registered User
 
Posts: 392
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:01 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: Not mine, but I'm curious about it. Also suspicious.

Unread postby PaulO » Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:15 am

I believe Old Forester claimed to be the first to bottle their own product where they prduced it. As far as Old Crow bottling their own in 1876. I don't know. From what I have read most whiskey back then was shipped in the barrel, and people reused bottles. The glass bottle in the picture could be that old. The paper label and seal over the top look relatively modern to me. If the printing were magnified enough it could be determined if modern technology made it.
PaulO
Registered User
 
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:02 pm
Location: Greenwood Indiana

Re: Not mine, but I'm curious about it. Also suspicious.

Unread postby cowdery » Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:42 pm

It is almost surely not what it purports to be, for all the reasons already mentioned and more.

During Prohibition, both Old Crow and Old Grand-Dad were "made" in Canada and smuggled into the United States. I don't recall the circumstances exactly, but it was Canadian whiskey in bottles that said Old Crow and Old Grand-Dad, that had no relationship to those products other than using the names and, in fact, there were several different people making them. There may have been some other brands counterfeited in the same way, but those two definitely were.

I suspect this is one of those.

The 1876 date is the date that was on the big sign at the Old Crow distillery, ostensibly indicating when that brand was established. In fact, if I remember correctly, the only thing that actually happened in 1876 is that Gaines Berry obtained the rights to the Old Crow name in that year and began to use that as the brand's starting point. What happens a lot is that we tend to think of brands then the way we think of brands now, but it was very different.

At any rate, I am 99.9% sure that isn't a bottle of Old Crow from 1876 and I suspect it's a Prohibition-era product of Canada.
- Chuck Cowdery

Author of Bourbon, Straight
User avatar
cowdery
Registered User
 
Posts: 1586
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:07 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Not mine, but I'm curious about it. Also suspicious.

Unread postby shoshani » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:41 am

I just noticed something.

Look at the bottle's seal. Actually, look at what's UNDER the seal.

The cork is attached to a wooden cap.

The cork attached to a wooden cap was invented and patented in 1913 by William Manera Bergius, nephew of Adam Teacher. It was immediately put into use on bottles of Teacher's Highland Cream Scotch Whisky, where it was advertised as "the self-opening bottle", with the slogan "Bury the Corkscrew".

(Above information taken from a ten year old edition of the Mitchell Beazley Pocket Guide to Scotch Whisky by Charles MacLean.)

This may be the other .1% that Chuck needs to be completely convinced. 8-)
shoshani
Registered User
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:51 am

Re: Not mine, but I'm curious about it. Also suspicious.

Unread postby shoshani » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:47 am

shoshani wrote:The cork is attached to a wooden cap.


Actually, the listing says it's glass. It's hard to tell photographed against a red background, though.

I wonder when the glass/cork stopper was invented...
shoshani
Registered User
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:51 am

Re: Not mine, but I'm curious about it. Also suspicious.

Unread postby bourbonv » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:42 am

I believe that it is a real pre-prohibition bottle of old crow, but most likely from the 1890's, not 1876. James E Pepper made the claim in an advertisement in Louisville's Wine and Spirits Bulletin that he created the strip seal with his name on it for security reasons when he became the first distiller to actually bottle whiskey at the distillery in the late 1880's. He did have to get some Kentucky laws changed in order to bottle at the distillery so Old Crow could not have bottled before that time. I do know that he is asking an insanely high price for this bottle, even if it was that early.
Mike Veach
"Our people live almost exclusively on whiskey" - E H Taylor, Jr. 25 April 1873
User avatar
bourbonv
Registered User
 
Posts: 4086
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: Louisville, Ky.

Re: Not mine, but I'm curious about it. Also suspicious.

Unread postby cowdery » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:14 pm

The part above the cork does appear to be glass, but the Teacher's claim doesn't seem dependent on the material, it's about not needing a corkscrew, so I think that's still some good information. Did such a top exist in the 1890s? I doubt it. This also looks like a mass-produced bottle and true mass production of bottles didn't begin until 1904. But it's not a federal tax strip, it's a fanciful one like the Pepper one that Mike describes, that's why I think it's a Prohibition-era import.

Wouldn't it be interesting if you could post comments or questions on eBay?
- Chuck Cowdery

Author of Bourbon, Straight
User avatar
cowdery
Registered User
 
Posts: 1586
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:07 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Not mine, but I'm curious about it. Also suspicious.

Unread postby bourbonv » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:45 pm

It is hard to tell from the photograph but it does look like a three piece mold was used to make the glass and I believe they started using that type of production in the mid 1890's. There is no indication of the 'Pure Food" regulations either and the stamp is obviously not a government strip stamp. I think the glass does look old enough for the 1890's and I have seen the glass topped cork on bottles that old. I would date it to the mid to late 1890's myself.
Mike Veach
"Our people live almost exclusively on whiskey" - E H Taylor, Jr. 25 April 1873
User avatar
bourbonv
Registered User
 
Posts: 4086
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: Louisville, Ky.


Return to Collector's Corner

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 14 guests