The Pros and Cons of eBay for Whiskey Hunters.

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The Pros and Cons of eBay for Whiskey Hunters.

Unread postby cowdery » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:41 am

I'm starting this thread in the same spirit as my Bottle Finder suggestion.

Although I know that no good deed goes unpunished, I continue to believe that we, meaning the regular contributors to this web site, can help the cause by providing good, reliable, unbiased information to other seekers after the amber elixer, especially beginners.

So I ask this question here, in this way, even though we've talked the subject to death at other times and in other places.

I'll start, though only to scratch the surface.

First, some personal disclosures. I've never bought anything on eBay and I've never sold anything on eBay, not bourbon, not anything, but I do look at it from time to time, especially when someone points me toward an interesting posting. I have no intention of participating, but it's interesting to see what people put up there, what they say about it, and what kinds of prices they are getting.

For me, the first big "con" about buying or selling whiskey on eBay is the legality problem. eBay has a standard disclaimer everybody uses but it doesn't really mean anything. It's mostly for covering eBay's ass. It doesn't do anything to protect the seller from prosecution for selling alcohol without a license, and a host of other criminal offenses both state and federal.

The actual risk of arrest or prosecution is pretty small, but it is there nonetheless.

Even aside from that, when you buy or sell something on eBay, you invariably have to lie. Virtually every seller who uses that mandatory disclaimer is lying, because in most cases the value of the item is in its contents, not the "collectible container;" the container's "incidental contents" are intended for consumption; the item is available at retail; and the container does not have a value that substantially exceeds the current retail price of the alcohol in the container. You also can be sure that most sellers will not take all appropriate steps to ensure that the buyer is of lawful age in the buyer's and seller's jurisdiction (generally 21 years old). Finally, it's not even possible for both the buyers and the sellers to ensure that the sale complies with all applicable laws and shipping regulations.

That bothers me. It seems like bad karma, if nothing else. If I have to lie to do this, shouldn't that tip me off that it's probably something I shouldn't do?

My purpose in posting this is not so much to solicit reactions to my attitude as it is to seek your opinion and your personal experiences buying or selling on eBay.
- Chuck Cowdery

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Unread postby Dump Bucket » Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:59 am

I have purchased my fair share of goodies on eBay... I travel and work a lot so it is easy to get gifts. Over the last two years I have had to go to eBay to get items that I cannot get in AZ.

Now, about 75% of the people I buy Bourbon from require a signature... a little higher of a percentage than the liquor stores that send it to me (about 50%). In this right, eBay sellers are doing a better job.

In some, if not most of my cases, the bourbon I am buying is collected by many, so they would not open it. The Four Roses 40th is highly collected and many just store it for future sales. I on the other hand am willing to forgo the value, take the financial loss and make sure it has not spoiled :mrgreen:

Is what most doing a gray area in the law... yes ... will the ATF fix it... be damn sure at some point. I do not expect fines to the individual, but eBay will get hit with charges much like that of a pimp.... it is not legal to facilitate illegal activities (ask the napster guys).

My only hope is that the bourbons I want reach AZ before the Feds through down the gauntlet. It will only take one junior Senator to take up this cause because some kid got booze, got drunk and got killed... to damn bad things always happen to late for the victim...
"What I do I do because I like to do." Alex DeLarge ACWO
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Unread postby Bourbon Joe » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:15 pm

Living in a control state, I look at e-bay as a Godsend. I have about as much chance of finding an old Stitzel-Weller in PA as I do hitting the Powerball Lottery. E-Bay is a way for people living under brutal liquor laws to obtain bottles that they would NEVER have. Hooray for E-Bay.
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Unread postby cowdery » Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:51 pm

Excellent job so far, guys. This is exactly the dialogue I was hoping for.
- Chuck Cowdery

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Ebay purchases

Unread postby ggilbertva » Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:00 pm

Chuck,

I'll admit that I too have purchased off of Ebay a couple of times. To me, that really is a last resort. I've been fortunate enough in my travels domestically and internationally in picking up very nice whiskey's, not to mention the dusty hunting I've done in Washington D.C. I purchased a 1959 Old Forester BIB and a 1974 Yellowstone off of Ebay. Both items arrived requiring adult signature. At this point, I'm less inclined to purchase from Ebay again. I think the opportunity for fraud and the price gouging makes it somewhat risky...that's just my opinion. I like to monitor what's being sold and how much items are going for, but right now, that's all I do. I do understand that for some folks, Ebay is a way to get those items just not available in certain geographic areas. There are legal and ethical issues that surround this practice and each person must decide whether they are comfortable with these issues in either selling or buying.
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Unread postby ACDetroit » Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:55 pm

I to have recently used eBay! I know the bottles I picked up were worth more on the inside than out! I have not seen a 1.75 ER 101 L'Burg in my hunting's. I don't think I'll find a Very Old Fitzgerald in my hunt either but I have not pulled the trigger on that one yet!

I do think some of the old out of date stuff is fair game on eBay but to find the BTAC from 2007 on there weeks after it's release I think is wrong. I know some of those folks in states that are not allocated any BTAC will argue with me on this one but I feel there are enough of us in this community that would be happy to grab a bottle and send it to you! That's what I found great about these sites! You make friends all over the country and if you can't get it ask a friend if he/she can help you out! That or trading with other members!

The eBay community doesn't hold a candle to what we have here!

As Mike V always says..."Chuck you always ask the most interesting questions"

Thanks Chuck another great post!

Tony
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Unread postby libertybar » Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:21 pm

If I may chime in, I have to say that on balance, the issues of legality/morality vs. accessibility is one that - while surely relevant - means less in a controlled state than it does in others.

In controlled states, one has to live vicariously through this virtual tasting room of sorts, because controlled states barely ever get access to the whiskey which we discuss here.

So, it seems like eBay and the other sites out there are a necessary evil in this case.

The most ugly part of this is of course how the seller on eBay will take a relatively inexpensive bottle and artificially increase the price to an amount that those that know what those bottles actually sell for find to be literally and more importantly, morally criminal.

But - again - to be able to get a bottle of Willett Rye or Bourbon? Red Hook Rye? Practically any Van Winkle whiskey?

To the Internet many go.
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Unread postby ggilbertva » Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:09 am

Agreed. While VA is a controlled state and many of the harder to find bourbons that I have were not purchased in my state. Thankfully, VA allows the importation of spirits up to a certain amount per transaction so I can order from places like Binny's and Shoppers Vineyard. Plus, I have easy access to WVA, MD and WDC so I can't really complain too much about living in a controlled state.
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Unread postby bourbonv » Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:56 pm

I don't buy or sell on ebay, or I should say buy or sell bourbon. I did get John to purchase for me a copy of magazine from the 1930's with several liquor articles in it, but I had him do it because i don't have an account.

The internet in general and ebay more specifically serves a purpose in making available products worldwide. My opinion is that if you think the seller is asking to much, don't bid. I don't see the problem of limited editions on ebay either. In many cases that is the only way a person is going to get a bottle of a limited edition bourbon. It becomes a service rendered to the consumer. I do think the ATF will eventually clamp down on the practice, but for the most part they have no reason to for now. The whiskey being sold was purchased legally with all of the taxes paid so there is no incentive to go after a person selling a bottle or two on ebay. The problem will be the people who are turning it into a mail order liquor store, selling hundreds or even thousands of bottles on ebay. Then you are talking about a felony bootlegging charge and worth pursuing by an ATF agent.

Ebay may step in to close down the practice sooner or later. If they don't they may face charges from the Feds and really loose some big bucks in legal fees.
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Ebay

Unread postby PaulO » Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:35 pm

I have never bought anything on Ebay. The one thing I like about it is that I can use it to try and get some idea of what a particular item is worth. A good example is the Beam collector bottles. A few are worth hundreds of dollars. The majority are worth only a buck or two. I guess I'm too afraid of getting ripped off to buy any whiskey to consume from Ebay. The way I read their disclaimer the customer is only buying the bottle. The contents are incidental. So there is no waranty.
Whenever we get on the topic of stuff we can't buy locally but want. I think about driving to Louisville and buying about enough bourbon to last a year. It's around two hours south on I 65 from me. Last time I went there I filled up the back seat of my wife's car. Our luggage was in the trunk. Maybe next time I will take the pick up truck. :idea:
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Unread postby MikeK » Fri May 09, 2008 10:20 am

Ebay is just the coolest thing ever. The down side is many of the items are misrepresented crap and prices tend to get way out of hand. But if there is something you want to buy or something you want to unload, there's no better way to reach a huge audience.

I have bought and sold quite a few items. I used to keep my eye on it for whiskey. Dusty hunting is very thin up north, so for many of us it is the only way to do it. Most bottles of interest will go for rediculous money, but if you keep a sharp eye there are real bargains to be had. A couple of you have tasted a Bonded Corn whiskey from the 1960's and an Old Taylor BIB from the 1940's that I paid less than $20 each for. I have also used it to unload items of decent value. Got a free $$$ ski jacket with your new car? Don't want it? Guess where you can get 75% of its value in cash within days?

I often trade bottles with members of this (and other) forums. But if no one here shows interest, and I really don't want it, then it might go up on Ebay. I just want to clear my bunker and get a couple dollars to buy something else :) What is really funny is the odd occation when I offer a bottle up on the forum for trade, get no interest, throw it on Ebay, and then see one or more people on this board bidding on it. Jeesh, I would have traded or sold it to you for far less!

Cheers!
Mike
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Re: The Pros and Cons of eBay for Whiskey Hunters.

Unread postby ChuckMick » Sun May 25, 2008 4:29 pm

Chuck,


I haven't used Ebay for anything, but I am amazed at what is available there. Like this fine offering. http://cgi.ebay.com/vXo-Fitzgerald-Fine ... dZViewItem



A little pricey for me but a definate find by any ones standards.



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Re: The Pros and Cons of eBay for Whiskey Hunters.

Unread postby Kinsey Worker » Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:07 pm

I have bought some bottles on E Bay but I find that for the most part now People are getting nuts on there bidding 10 times more then something is worth so I have mostly given up on it for that. Also being In Pa your chance of Finding a bottle of Old Hickory is about as good as getting hit by Lightening 3 times in a row! Our State stores like to sell one Thing Wine.
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Re: The Pros and Cons of eBay for Whiskey Hunters.

Unread postby sailor22 » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:17 am

While I have bought and sold many items on e-bay and have found it a fun and worthwhile experience I haven't yet purchased any liquor.... bottles.

I don't have any problem at all buying collectible bottles that have incidental contents. I would never ever under any circumstances do anything that violated a law or avoided paying a tax. I'm just concerned I might be paying too much for the bottle -- this world of collectibles can be confusing - and I'm still learning about it. I will gladly save the bottle till I am sure it has no value and I cant sell it to another collector, then I'll throw it away and boy, will I ever be angry with myself for making such a bad investment. Maybe it will work out better next time.

Also I suspect that the trend toward the purchasing of collectible bottles on e-bay for speculation and investment is going to be a boon for the Bourbon bottle manufacturers. There are giant markets where certain.....bottles are rarely if ever distributed. It is a shame that so many interested bottle collectors don't have the opportunity to sample the fine products of these bottle manufacturers. We have all noticed the prices of these bottles going up - do you suppose e-bay speculation has anything to do with what seems to be a larger and larger demand? I'm guessing collectors all over the world are buys bottles currently in production and hoarding those bottles in hopes the value may rise.

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Re: The Pros and Cons of eBay for Whiskey Hunters.

Unread postby Bourbon Joe » Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:37 am

Well Sailor, the only bottle I'm interested in is one that contains whiskey and the older, the better. People that live in control states look to e-bay and other auctions as their only source for "good" bourbons and ryes. It is a shame, but that's the way it is.
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